Difference between revisions of "2.5.06"

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Line 99: Line 99:
  
  
 +
----
 +
 +
[I am replying in English for the international readers of this list]
 +
 +
> 1. es sollte eine zweiwöchige Jour Fixe stattfinden, Vorschlag ist
 +
> dienstags, aber erst am späten Nachmittag (18 Uhr?)
 +
 +
[Proposal for a fixed meeting every two weeks at 6 p.m. - This would
 +
be most welcome since it's difficult for me to sacrifice a work day.]
 +
 +
> 2. Jutta Horstkämper stellt sich vor, sagt, dass Usability nicht ihr
 +
> Thema ist, sie aber gern Kontakte zu den entsprechenden Leuten
 +
> vermitteln kann.
 +
 +
http://openusability.org is the standard resource for usability of
 +
free software.
 +
 +
> Open Usability:
 +
> - Andreas: warum gibt es kein Interface, das GNU/Linux für den
 +
> einfachen User benutzbar macht?
 +
 +
[Why is there no interface which makes GNU/Linux usable for lay
 +
users?]
 +
 +
In my view, Ubuntu Linux is the current state of the art in free
 +
operating system usability. A Ubuntu Live boot CD [which doesn't touch
 +
your operating system installation on your hard drive and is also
 +
available for Macs with PPC chips] gives you a good impression of what
 +
is feasible in free software and what not.  There is progress, but not
 +
perfection, as I tried to put down on this page:
 +
<http://cramer.plaintext.cc/software_blog/>
 +
 +
The main reason why free software doesn't provide the unified user
 +
experinece of Mac OS and, to a lesser degree, Windows, is that it's
 +
not controlled by a single entity that standardizes the desktop
 +
interface and can centrally prescibe user interface nomenclatures to
 +
developers.
 +
 +
While user interface standardization documents such as the Gnome
 +
Human Interface Guidelines and the Gnome and KDE accessibility
 +
projects do exist, you cannot force free developers to follow them.
 +
 +
- My experience however is that the current Gnome and KDE desktops are
 +
good enough for normal users and on par with Windows and Mac OS - more
 +
tricky in some corners and more straightforward in others. [For
 +
example, the Mac OS X finder and dock have major usability issues
 +
conversely.]
 +
 +
When we installed the iMacs with Linux as public terminals at the last
 +
WOS, everyone believed them to be "Macs" and nobody noticed that they
 +
were actually running Linux with Gnome and Mozilla.
 +
 +
 +
The real issue for desktop acceptance of free operating systems is
 +
that desktop linux is entirely unsupported by the computer industry,
 +
both in terms of hardware (drivers) and software. It is an established
 +
server operating system, which is why Intel, AMD, manufacturers of
 +
network cards support Linux driver development either with code that
 +
goes directly into the kernel or with detailed specifications of their
 +
hardware for free driver developers. For whole classes of desktop
 +
hardware - above all: practically all graphics cards on the market,
 +
WLAN cards, power management, internal modems, webcams and other USB
 +
gadgets - there exists no adequate manufacturer Linux support. Linux
 +
developers have to reverse-engineer drivers, which is tedious hacker
 +
work, and means that Linux is likely to have issues running on
 +
brandnew hardware (especially laptops). On the software side,
 +
commercial vendors - Adobe, Microsoft, Steinberg, Real Instruments
 +
etc. - don't port their desktop applications to Linux. Although, for
 +
example, the Linux kernel supports low-latency audio out of the box
 +
and is vastly superior to Windows and Mac OS X in this respect.
 +
 +
Your Mac works out of the box because Apple controls both the software
 +
and the hardware and therefore can make them perfectly play together.
 +
Windows doesn't achieve it as well because it has to support an
 +
incomparably more complexe range of hardware components and
 +
configurations. Linux can't even adequately support those components
 +
without manufacturer support, and will continue to have gaps in its
 +
desktop software portfolio as long as it can solely rely on volunteer
 +
development. Large, general-purpose free desktop programs like Mozilla
 +
and OpenOffice only exist because large computer industry vendors
 +
(IBM, Sun and others) have strategical interests in them and provide
 +
development resources.
 +
 +
> Wie definiert sich das Soziale in Social Software? Beispiel:
 +
> GNU/Linux-Programmierer hatten keine Lust, an der Nutzeroberfläche
 +
> für die Stadtverwaltung München mitzuarbeiten.
 +
 +
[Andreas writes that GNU/Linux developers didn't want to collaborate
 +
in the GUI for the public administration of Munich.] - What are your
 +
sources?  Well, it's fully understandable if they don't want to do it
 +
without payment. Free software doesn't mean that you get developers
 +
doing free (in the sense of: unpaid) work for you.
 +
 +
> - Geplant war ein Streitgespräch Mark Shuttleworth (Ubuntu) und Ian
 +
> Murdoch (Debian) - Andreas merkt an, dass er gern mehr als eine
 +
> Technikdiskussion sehen würde. Was steht in der Ankündigung, das die
 +
> Diskussion auch für ihn als Mac-Nutzer interessant erscheinen ließe?
 +
 +
[What would be interesting for Andreas in a dispute between Mark
 +
Shuttleworth and Ian Murdoch beyond issues of technology?]
 +
 +
Well, if the issue would be how to bring free software to the masses,
 +
and which development model to choose (Ubuntu development is based on
 +
a self-developed proprietary software called "Launchpad", btw.), that
 +
should be interesting to people?
 +
 +
[Open standards]:
 +
 +
> - Volker: was macht einen Standard aus? Was heißt offen, was heißt
 +
> frei?
 +
[What makes up a standard? What does open, what does free mean in this
 +
context?]
 +
 +
Some years ago, Bruce Perens, author of the "Debian Free Software
 +
Guidelines" and the "Open Source Definition" has written up a
 +
definition of what a truly open standard should be here:
 +
<http://perens.com/OpenStandards/Definition.html>
 +
 +
This is still the best respective document I know, and which is
 +
routinely referred to in the free software community.
 +
 +
> - Andreas: Es gibt ein Bewusstsein für diese Fragen in einer
 +
> Community von KünstlerInnen. Wie kann man das Thema so aufbereiten,
 +
> dass sie den Eindruck haben, sie verstehen, warum das ein
 +
> politisches/soziales Problem ist, wie man sich verhalten soll, was
 +
> es für Möglichkeiten gibt?
 +
 +
[Andreas: how can you communicate this problem to artists?]
 +
 +
I think the best example would be decay and loss of proprietary
 +
formats. Take HyperCard for example - on which much if not most
 +
digital artistic works in the late 1980s and early 1990s was based. It
 +
was a proprietary, non-open file format. HyperCard was phased out with
 +
Mac OS X, and can't be run anymore on the new Intel Macs. Same is true
 +
for all software developed on the basis of Mac OS 7/8/9 for which no
 +
("Classic") emulation exists anymore in the Intel Macs. On the other
 +
hand, those people who developed web cgis with Perl scripting can
 +
still run their applications unmodified, and with no emulation today.
 +
 +
The HyperCard history is doomed to repeat itself with Macromedia
 +
Flash. Macromedia Director/Shockwave is already dying and no longer
 +
supported with browser plugins. Same is true for non-standard "dynamic
 +
HTML". But those people who used standard, browser-independent HTML
 +
still have perfectly usable web sites/work today.
 +
 +
Most artists and curators don't understand the difference between a
 +
file format and a software program well enough, and what it means if a
 +
software program uses a proprietary, non-open,
 +
non-platform-independent file format. Nonfree software like Flash
 +
deliberately blurs the difference (since both the file format, the
 +
browser display plugin and the authoring application are called
 +
"Flash").
  
  

Revision as of 17:26, 21 May 2006

Protokoll, 2. Mai 2006

1. es sollte eine zweiwöchige Jour Fixe stattfinden, Vorschlag ist dienstags, aber erst am späten Nachmittag (18 Uhr?)

2. Jutta Horstkämper stellt sich vor, sagt, dass Usability nicht ihr Thema ist, sie aber gern Kontakte zu den entsprechenden Leuten vermitteln kann.

3. Entgegen dem, was im Protokoll des letzten Treffens vermerkt ist, ist „Oberthema“ 1 nicht „Freie Software in der arabischen Welt“, sondern „Technologies of Freedom“

4. auch Netlabel wird unter das Oberthema „Autorschaft“ gefasst - Cornelia: dafür muss noch eine bessere Bezeichnung gefunden werden, da sonst Themen unter Autorschaft geführt werden, die nicht dorthin passen

- Volker: wie passen bereits vorgeschlagene Panels in die Oberkategorien?


5. Arbeit und Ökonomie

Freies Wissen, Grundeinkommen und Entfremdung: - zentrale Frage der Diskussion: Warum sollten alle, die auf den Feldern arbeiten, die WOS thematisiert, für ein Grundeinkommen eintreten bzw. sich wenigstens für die Idee interessieren? Philippe van Parijs, einer der Wunschkandidaten für das Panel, hat bereits abgesagt - es wird kontrovers diskutiert, ob Götz Werner eingeladen werden soll. Er ist Chef der Drogeriemarktkette DM und tritt sehr öffentlichwirksam für ein Grundeinkommen. Unter Umständen kommt er auch als Sponosr in Frage. Matthias hat ihn bereits kontaktiert, aber bisher keine Antwort erhalten. Matthias hat Bedenken, dass sich die Diskussion zu sehr auf die Frage der Realisierbarkeit des Gurndeinkommens konzentrieren würde, zu wenig auf die Verbindung, warum gerade WOS-Besucher/Aktive sich für die Idee interessieren sollten. - Matthias schreibt ein Exposé für das Panel


6. Technologies of Freedom:

Open Usability: - Andreas: warum gibt es kein Interface, das GNU/Linux für den einfachen User benutzbar macht? Wie definiert sich das Soziale in Social Software? Beispiel: GNU/Linux-Programmierer hatten keine Lust, an der Nutzeroberfläche für die Stadtverwaltung München mitzuarbeiten. - Jutta: Man erwirbt Reputation, indem man Features einbaut, die aber kein Sachbearbeiter benutzen kann und wird. - Volker spricht Leute an, die sich um das Thema kümmern könnten. Er ergänzt die Namen im Protokoll.

Debian / Ubuntu: - Geplant war ein Streitgespräch Mark Shuttleworth (Ubuntu) und Ian Murdoch (Debian) - Andreas merkt an, dass er gern mehr als eine Technikdiskussion sehen würde. Was steht in der Ankündigung, das die Diskussion auch für ihn als Mac-Nutzer interessant erscheinen ließe? - Cornelia dazu: Es müssen nicht alle Veranstaltungen gleich zugänglich sein, sondern die Konferenz insgesamt muss ein breites Spektrum an Themen bieten. - Matthias: Auch die „Nerds“ sollen mit einer Frage/Perspektive konfrontiert werden, die über das, was auf dem Linux-Tag gemacht wird, hinausgeht.

Offene Standards: - Volker: Offene Standards sind ein Muss. - Matthias: Es sollte deutlich werden, dass es nicht ein technisches Thema ist, sondern ein soziales. Ross Anderson wäre ein Beispiel für einen Wissenschaftler, der immer auch die politische/soziale Seite der Technik betont, auch wenn es um vermeintlich schwer zu vermittelnde Inhalte wie offen Standards geht. Das ist nicht unbedingt Plädoyer dafür, ihn dazu einzuladen, sondern nach Teilnehmern zu suchen, die ähnlich argumentieren. - Andreas: Auch für Künstler spielt es eine große Rolle, welche Formate verwendet werden. Beispiel: Dieter Daniels, Direktor des Ludwig-Bolzmann-Instituts, soll das Archiv der Ars Electronica bearbeiten. Wie kann man das Material für die Zukunft sichern? Offene Standards ist sicher dort ein Thema, Daniels wäre in der Lage, das aus der Perspektive des Archivars zu beschreiben. - Volker: was macht einen Standard aus? Was heißt offen, was heißt frei? - Andreas: Es gibt ein Bewusstsein für diese Fragen in einer Community von KünstlerInnen. Wie kann man das Thema so aufbereiten, dass sie den Eindruck haben, sie verstehen, warum das ein politisches/soziales Problem ist, wie man sich verhalten soll, was es für Möglichkeiten gibt?

Digital Library: - Panel mit OLP, Google Books, European Digital Library, Library of Alexandria - Volker: Brewster Kahle hat allerdings schon abgesagt; vielleicht kommt allerdings der Chef des Open Library Projects

7. Finanzierung: es fehlt noch Geld, Jamie Love will mit Fundraising helfen (z.B. Sun wg. ODF – Volker: der Vortrag auf der A2K-Konferenz war nicht weltbewegend, aber offene Standards sind eigentlich ein Muss)

Rest muss noch ergänzt werden; ich musste um 17.15 Uhr los.

Gruß, Matthias



[I am replying in English for the international readers of this list]

> 1. es sollte eine zweiwöchige Jour Fixe stattfinden, Vorschlag ist > dienstags, aber erst am späten Nachmittag (18 Uhr?)

[Proposal for a fixed meeting every two weeks at 6 p.m. - This would be most welcome since it's difficult for me to sacrifice a work day.]

> 2. Jutta Horstkämper stellt sich vor, sagt, dass Usability nicht ihr > Thema ist, sie aber gern Kontakte zu den entsprechenden Leuten > vermitteln kann.

http://openusability.org is the standard resource for usability of free software.

> Open Usability: > - Andreas: warum gibt es kein Interface, das GNU/Linux für den > einfachen User benutzbar macht?

[Why is there no interface which makes GNU/Linux usable for lay users?]

In my view, Ubuntu Linux is the current state of the art in free operating system usability. A Ubuntu Live boot CD [which doesn't touch your operating system installation on your hard drive and is also available for Macs with PPC chips] gives you a good impression of what is feasible in free software and what not. There is progress, but not perfection, as I tried to put down on this page: <http://cramer.plaintext.cc/software_blog/>

The main reason why free software doesn't provide the unified user experinece of Mac OS and, to a lesser degree, Windows, is that it's not controlled by a single entity that standardizes the desktop interface and can centrally prescibe user interface nomenclatures to developers.

While user interface standardization documents such as the Gnome Human Interface Guidelines and the Gnome and KDE accessibility projects do exist, you cannot force free developers to follow them.

- My experience however is that the current Gnome and KDE desktops are good enough for normal users and on par with Windows and Mac OS - more tricky in some corners and more straightforward in others. [For example, the Mac OS X finder and dock have major usability issues conversely.]

When we installed the iMacs with Linux as public terminals at the last WOS, everyone believed them to be "Macs" and nobody noticed that they were actually running Linux with Gnome and Mozilla.


The real issue for desktop acceptance of free operating systems is that desktop linux is entirely unsupported by the computer industry, both in terms of hardware (drivers) and software. It is an established server operating system, which is why Intel, AMD, manufacturers of network cards support Linux driver development either with code that goes directly into the kernel or with detailed specifications of their hardware for free driver developers. For whole classes of desktop hardware - above all: practically all graphics cards on the market, WLAN cards, power management, internal modems, webcams and other USB gadgets - there exists no adequate manufacturer Linux support. Linux developers have to reverse-engineer drivers, which is tedious hacker work, and means that Linux is likely to have issues running on brandnew hardware (especially laptops). On the software side, commercial vendors - Adobe, Microsoft, Steinberg, Real Instruments etc. - don't port their desktop applications to Linux. Although, for example, the Linux kernel supports low-latency audio out of the box and is vastly superior to Windows and Mac OS X in this respect.

Your Mac works out of the box because Apple controls both the software and the hardware and therefore can make them perfectly play together. Windows doesn't achieve it as well because it has to support an incomparably more complexe range of hardware components and configurations. Linux can't even adequately support those components without manufacturer support, and will continue to have gaps in its desktop software portfolio as long as it can solely rely on volunteer development. Large, general-purpose free desktop programs like Mozilla and OpenOffice only exist because large computer industry vendors (IBM, Sun and others) have strategical interests in them and provide development resources.

> Wie definiert sich das Soziale in Social Software? Beispiel: > GNU/Linux-Programmierer hatten keine Lust, an der Nutzeroberfläche > für die Stadtverwaltung München mitzuarbeiten.

[Andreas writes that GNU/Linux developers didn't want to collaborate in the GUI for the public administration of Munich.] - What are your sources? Well, it's fully understandable if they don't want to do it without payment. Free software doesn't mean that you get developers doing free (in the sense of: unpaid) work for you.

> - Geplant war ein Streitgespräch Mark Shuttleworth (Ubuntu) und Ian > Murdoch (Debian) - Andreas merkt an, dass er gern mehr als eine > Technikdiskussion sehen würde. Was steht in der Ankündigung, das die > Diskussion auch für ihn als Mac-Nutzer interessant erscheinen ließe?

[What would be interesting for Andreas in a dispute between Mark Shuttleworth and Ian Murdoch beyond issues of technology?]

Well, if the issue would be how to bring free software to the masses, and which development model to choose (Ubuntu development is based on a self-developed proprietary software called "Launchpad", btw.), that should be interesting to people?

[Open standards]:

> - Volker: was macht einen Standard aus? Was heißt offen, was heißt > frei? [What makes up a standard? What does open, what does free mean in this context?]

Some years ago, Bruce Perens, author of the "Debian Free Software Guidelines" and the "Open Source Definition" has written up a definition of what a truly open standard should be here: <http://perens.com/OpenStandards/Definition.html>

This is still the best respective document I know, and which is routinely referred to in the free software community.

> - Andreas: Es gibt ein Bewusstsein für diese Fragen in einer > Community von KünstlerInnen. Wie kann man das Thema so aufbereiten, > dass sie den Eindruck haben, sie verstehen, warum das ein > politisches/soziales Problem ist, wie man sich verhalten soll, was > es für Möglichkeiten gibt?

[Andreas: how can you communicate this problem to artists?]

I think the best example would be decay and loss of proprietary formats. Take HyperCard for example - on which much if not most digital artistic works in the late 1980s and early 1990s was based. It was a proprietary, non-open file format. HyperCard was phased out with Mac OS X, and can't be run anymore on the new Intel Macs. Same is true for all software developed on the basis of Mac OS 7/8/9 for which no ("Classic") emulation exists anymore in the Intel Macs. On the other hand, those people who developed web cgis with Perl scripting can still run their applications unmodified, and with no emulation today.

The HyperCard history is doomed to repeat itself with Macromedia Flash. Macromedia Director/Shockwave is already dying and no longer supported with browser plugins. Same is true for non-standard "dynamic HTML". But those people who used standard, browser-independent HTML still have perfectly usable web sites/work today.

Most artists and curators don't understand the difference between a file format and a software program well enough, and what it means if a software program uses a proprietary, non-open, non-platform-independent file format. Nonfree software like Flash deliberately blurs the difference (since both the file format, the browser display plugin and the authoring application are called "Flash").



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